A Catholic Family News Exclusive

An Interview with
Bishop Richard Williamson
of the Society of Saint Pius X

Note: In a recent 30 Days interview, (No. 9, 2005), Vatican Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, admitted that the Society of Saint Pius X is not in formal schism, and that the Latin Tridentine Mass was never abolished. Then on December 8, Una Voce of Italy published that Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X, had a confidential five-hour meeting with Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos at the Vatican in late November. Catholic Family News Editor, John Vennari, contacted Bishop Richard Williamson, Rector of Nuestra Senora Corredentor Seminary in Argentina, for his comments.

CFN: Would you comment on Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ recent statement that the Society of Saint Pius X is not in formal schism?

Bishop Williamson: If Cardinal Castrillon said recently that the SSPX is not in schism, that is a statement that should be given wide publicity, because by no means do all Catholics see clearly that that is the truth of the matter. The SSPX has never been in schism because it has never rejected the right of the Church authorities in Rome to govern the Church, it has only said that certain of the orders given by those authorities cannot be obeyed because they are contrary to the good of the Church. Such selective “disobedience” has never amounted to schism.

CFN: Another surprising remark from Cardinal Hoyos was his admission that the Latin Tridentine Mass was never abolished.

BW: Again, if Cardinal Castrillon stated that the Tridentine rite of Mass has never been forbidden, that is another statement that should be given wide publicity, because many Catholic priests would love to celebrate Mass in that rite who presently still believe it is forbidden to them. Of course the Latin Tridentine Mass was never abolished, but the impression has come from Rome for a long time that it was abolished.

CFN: Una Voce from Italy reported of a recent five-hour meeting between Cardinal Hoyos and Bishop Fellay. One of the things it says was discussed was the possibility of the Vatican “lifting” the excommunication of the SSPX bishops. Now since the 1988 Consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX have insisted there was no legal excommunication in the first place, and thus, no excommunication to lift. How do you see this being resolved?

BW: On Rome’s declaration at the end of June, 1988, that Archbishop Lefebvre and the four bishops who allowed themselves to be consecrated by him without permission had automatically, by Church law, excommunicated themselves, the SSPX has always taken the position that, by Church law, there was no such excommunication, because the five bishops all acted out of the sincere conviction — even if they were mistaken (see New Code, Canon #1323, No. 4) that the grave Church crisis necessitated the consecrations. In pursuit of mutual harmony, the SSPX may now seek a face-saving formula for Rome to “lift” the “excommunication,” but no mutual harmony can justify any formula which would betray the truth. “Harmony” based on untruth is no true harmony!

  The grave problem here underlying any pursuit of harmony between Rome and the SSPX is that Rome still does not believe there is a crisis in the Church anything like as grave as the SSPX believes. Until Rome sees that, all “resolution” of problems between the SSPX and Rome must be difficult, to say the least.

CFN: The Conciliar hierarchy at the Vatican speaks of possibly stopping abuses. But traditional Catholics will define the term “abuse” differently from the Novus Ordo hierarchy. For traditional Catholics, the New Mass itself is an abuse, as (in the words of Cardinal Ottaviani), it “represents a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent”.

BW: Here is a classic example of that difficulty. Rome presently still sees no grave problem intrinsic to the new rite of Mass (from Paul VI in 1969). Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX, on the other hand, have always held that that new rite is so intrinsically de-Catholicised (down-playing of Real Presence, true sacrifice, sacrificing priesthood) that it gravely endangers the faith both of priest celebrating it and of laity attending it. Until Rome begins to see how grave is the problem of the Novus Ordo Mass, it is difficult to see how any true harmony can be established between Rome and the SSPX.

CFN: Archbishop Lefebvre’s 1974 Declaration (see below) sums up the mission of the Society of Saint Pius X. Do you think that the SSPX could properly fulfill this mission under present-day Vatican approval?

BW: Whether the SSPX could fulfil its mission as presented by Archbishop Lefebvre in November of 1974 if the SSPX came under present-day Vatican approval, would have to depend on the conditions required by the Vatican for that approval. For instance, there is every likelihood that this Vatican would require some kind of SSPX acceptance of the Second Vatican Council. But that Council and the New Mass are the heart of the theory and practice respectively of that changing of the Catholic religion which it is the SSPX’s mission to refuse. So it is difficult to imagine this Rome offering any kind of approval which the SSPX, faithful to the Archbishop’s famous Declaration, could accept.

CFN: After Bishop Fellay’s August 29 meeting with Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Francesco Pompedda, the former prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, told the Italian daily La Stampa that the Society of St. Pius X could only be reconciled to the Holy See if it recognizes the validity of Vatican II decrees. Yet Archbishop Lefebvre rightly pointed out that the Vatican II decrees are a “patchwork” — liberal documents with traditional patching. How then could the SSPX “accept” Vatican II?

BW: Sure enough. It is not surprising that immediately after Bishop Fellay’s meeting with Pope Benedict XVI last August, a Roman Cardinal would stake out Conciliar Rome’s claim that reconciliation between Rome and the SSPX would require SSPX recognition of the Vatican II decrees. But those decrees are indeed a “patchwork,” mixing the (old) Catholic religion with the (new) Conciliar religion. The SSPX in order to accept them, would have to betray its very reason for existing, which is the refusal of that new religion

CFN: In February 2004, the Society of Saint Pius X published “From Ecumenism to Silent Apostasy,” sent to all the Cardinals in the world. It was a theological criticism, based on the perennial Magisterium of the Church, against Conciliar and post-Conciliar ecumenism. Cardinal Hoyos was publicly critical of this SSPX document, claiming “no one has the right to judge the Holy See,” even though the document challenged ecumenism, but did not pass a judgment on the person of the Pope.

BW: The SSPX February 2004 document, “From Ecumenism to Silent Apostasy” was an exposition of classic and true Catholic doctrine, which cannot change, on relations between the true Catholic Church and all other religions which must more or less deny the doctrine of that Church in order to be different from it. The question is one of truth, not of a right or lack of right “to judge the Holy See.” The Holy See depends upon the truth. However, it is typical of the present-day Vatican to avoid the primary questions of truth and to divert them towards secondary questions of discipline, obedience, “lack of right to judge,” etc., etc. In fact, in the Catholic Church, the primary questions of doctrine and truth govern those secondary questions. In the Conciliar Church, truth no longer reigns supreme.

CFN: Thank you for your comments, Your Excellency. Any closing remarks?

BW: What is slowly being grasped by sincere Catholics, but not by the present authorities of the Church in Rome, is that Vatican II and the New Mass represent a mixture of Catholicism and a new man-centered religion, with the tilt in both being towards the new religion. Between true Catholicism and this new religion there is a war to the death, which can only end in the unmasking and destruction of the new religion, because Our Lord has promised that His religion, true Catholicism, will last to the end of the world.

   If, then, there is to be harmony between the Rome of Vatican II and the SSPX of the Archbishop’s truly Catholic Declaration of November 1974, there are only three possibilities: either Rome abandons the Conciliar religion; or the SSPX betrays the Catholic religion; or Rome half-abandons and the SSPX half-betrays, for there to be some “meeting” in between.

   These are not harsh words but simply the reality of the matter, which many souls still do not see, but which they will see if they seek the truth

    Declaration of

    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
      November 21, 1974

    We adhere with our whole heart and our whole soul to Catholic Rome, the Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of those traditions necessary for the maintenance of that Faith, to eternal Rome, Mistress of Wisdom and Truth.

    Because of this adherence we refuse and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies, such as were clearly manifested during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council in all the resulting reforms.

    All of these reforms  have, indeed, contributed and still contribute to the demolition of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the destruction of the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacraments, to the disappearance of religious life, and to naturalistic and Teilhardian teaching in universities, seminaries and catechesis, a teaching born of Liberalism and Protestantism many times condemned by the solemn magisterium of the Church. No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can constrain us to abandon or diminish our Catholic Faith, such as has been clearly expressed and professed by the Church's magisterium for 19 centuries.

    "But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." (Gal. 1:8).

    Is this not what the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if a certain contradiction is apparent in his words and actions, as well as in the acts of various Roman Congregations, then we choose what has always been taught, and we turn a deaf ear to the innovations which are destroying the Church.

    The lex orandi (law of prayer) cannot be profoundly changed without changing the lex credendi (law of belief). The New Mass is in line with the new catechism, the new priesthood, new seminaries, new universities, and the charismatic or Pentecostal church, all of which are in opposition to orthodoxy and to the age-old magisterium.

    This reform, since it has issued from Liberalism and from Modernism, is entirely corrupt. It comes from heresy and results in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is thus impossible for any faithful Catholic who is aware of these things to adopt this reform, or to submit to it in any way at all. To ensure our salvation, the only attitude of fidelity to the Church and to Catholic doctrine, is a categorical refusal to accept the reform.

    It is for this reason that, without any rebellion, bitterness or resentment, we pursue our work of the formation of priests under the star of the age-old magisterium, in the conviction that we can thus do no greater service to the holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to the future generations.

    For this reason we hold firmly to all that has been believed and practiced by the Church of all time, in her faith, morals, worship, catechetical instruction, priestly formation and her institutions and codified in the books which appeared before the Modernist influence of the late Council. Meanwhile, we wait for the true light of Tradition to dispel the darkness which obscures the sky of eternal Rome.

    By acting thus we are sure, with the grace of God, and the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Joseph and St. Pius X, of remaining faithful to the Catholic and Roman Church, to all the successors of St. Peter, and of being fidelis dispensatores mysterium Domini Jesu Christi in Spiritu Sancto.

+ Marcel Lefebvre

Rome on the Feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Reprinted from the January 2006 edition of
Catholic Family News
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